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Joe, I disagree with your assessment also and believe in letting that 12lber go or 10lber or 8lber or 7lber or 6lber etc. Like I have said before that 12.5lber you worked hard for was caught by someone else along the way when it was smaller and was released allowing you the opportunity to catch her. The joy you felt catching that pig is exactly why I do not want to remove such a fish when I am blessed enough to catch one like that. I would want someone else to feel the same rush I did when I caught her. Sort of a what goes around comes around thing. If I catch a 7lber or 8lber or bigger, it goes back in as I hope that some day she will grow to a 10lber or a teen bass. I would hate to know that the fish I let go ended up on someone else's wall though. :sad2:

For me it is the chase not the end result. So a fiberglass mount is actually better for me as it is all just memories anyway. I never forget my memories. I can tell you all about my big fish I have caught over the years and when I look at my pictures I know which fish I am holding and where I caught it and on what. :) I have a fiberglass mount and while it pales in comparison to your fish as it is only 9.5lbs it is still of my PB and I think of this fish and the moment I caught her every time I look at it just as much as if I had killed it and skin mounted it. Although my PB bass is a northern strain so actually I feel prety good about mine as northern strains don't grow as big as florida strains. BTW, mine looks fabulous as Lake Fork Taxidermy did mine and they are one of the best.

But like Tom said, it is nice to see that we can all share our views and express our feelings without being hammered. :thumbup01:
 
When I first read where someone believed any trophy bass they caught was released earlier in life I began examining bass mouths. I've caught some with scars and old tears. But most have shown no sign of trauma, not a torn tendon, no holes in membranes. Some tissues can't fill in, just like when a human or any other animal can't fill in a torn tendon. I doubt anyone can find proof bass heal miraculously. However, it would be a lot easier to find evidence most bass are never hooked, the most aggressive feeders always getting first chance at any meal coming by anyway.

We have an average of 150 registered bass tournaments here every year. Some only have a few dozen boats, other a few hundred. That's a lot of pressure. A complaint from many is it's getting really hard to catch decent bass while biologists are saying the populations increase each year, reaching an ideal level, except for 11-13" due to some tough spawn seasons. We need more 13-16" bass so there's a 13" minimum size, while for years until last year we had a protected 13-16" slot to increase the 16-20" class. So what's happening? Aggressive bass that prefer shallow water have learned to ignore artificial baits, while the least experienced are allowed a chance to bite. The "trained" good bass are passing on lures, feeding the never ending search for a new lure no bass has fallen for before. Each time a particular bass gets boated it is going to learn something, and quickly become uncatchable. That's been proved in tanks using hooked and netted bass. The hooked bass would only eat live minnows.

Jim
 
I saw Rick Clunn a few days ago speaking to the same notion. He feared that catching bass was going to keep getting tougher and tougher because of the constant education they are getting. Rick is the king in my book but come on thats a little out there don't you think?
 
I guess it depends what side of the fence you sit on Jim. To believe a bass could live 10 years and never be caught 1 time is a stretch to me. Unless that bass lived in a small hardly fished water shed. It is possible I suppose that this can happen but I think the odds are stacked against such a thing happening. That is 520 weekends of heavy fishing pressure let alone thousands of weekday fishing pressure.

BTW, hooks that are penetrated inside of a fish's mouth do indeed heal. Maybe the membrane that is torn inbetween their lips might not heal? But hooks stuck in the tongue, roof of their mouth etc. would be impossible to say years later where never caught because it would heal. Now if the fish was caught recently and you caught it then yeah I believe you could tell as it would look like a wound.
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
C & R the deep water factor.
Bass and I need to once again remind myself that" bass are bass" and I'm speaking in general about northern largemouth black bass, although spots, smallmouth and Florida's differ in regards to deep water tolerance stresses.
The factors to be concerned with are basically; water pressure, water temperature and dissolved oxygen levels "DO".
To understand the affects that water pressure has on bass we need to know a little about the physics and bass anatomy. Bass use a gas produced by their internal digestive system, the membrane along backbone cavity, to produce gas to fill their air bladders to achieve neutral buoyancy at whatever depth they have acclimate to. The physics of water pressure on air volume is to compress air into a small area as the pressure increases. If you take a balloon and blow it up to say 4" diameter and submerse it 1 atmosphere or 14.7 feet, lets use 15', the balloon will shrink to approximately 3" diameter, 2 atmospheres it will shrink further to 1 1/2 inches and so the deeper the balloon goes. Water pressures are distributed equally on all surfaces of the balloon and on the basses air bladder, that compresses and expands depending on the depth the bass has equalized to.
Bass have evolved to be shallow water fish that normally live within 1 atmosphere of pressure change without any adverse affects. If the bass is acclimated to be neutral bouncy at 15', it can easily go down to 30' and up to the surface to feed or stay a short time period without it's air bladder expanding and pushing the basses stomach so it can't swallow or compress to the point the bass can't control it's equilibrium. I the bass has adjusted to depths that exceed 2 atmospheres over 30' , then the bass experiences air bladder expansion to the point where it's stomach is being pushed up the throat and must return to the depth it came from to compress the air bladder to survive and reach equilibrium and suspend. It takes a bass about 24 hours to adjust to 1 atmosphere of pressure change by making more gas or venting excess gas, because they don't have valves like deep water fish. When you needle a basses air bladder and punch a hole in it, the wound must heal before the air bladder will function properly. If the bass is injured and doesn't have the strength to keep swimmin, it will sink into deep water without sufficient DO and colder temperatures and die. If you don't needle the extended airbladder the bass may not be able to return down to deeper water on it's own and is subject suffocation without DO or to predators like birds.
Deep water is relative to the type of reservoir, lake or river. Southern natural river and lakes are rarely over 30' deep, so water pressure affects are not applicable. Reservoirs and natural northern lakes can easily exceed 30 feet and thats where water pressure affects become an issue.
Bass can tolerate a wide range of water temperatures, 40 to 90 degrees if the temperatures change very slowly, about 5 degrees over 24 hours, to give the cold blooded bass a chance to acclimate. If the bass is living in 70 degree water at 15' depth for example and brought up to the surface and put in a live well that has 90 degree surface water, the bass goes into shock and can die.
DO, bass seek the warmest water temperature that has the best DO levels. Water above 80 degrees starts to loose DO rapidly unless current or wind stirres the water. Bass tend to go deeper when water temperatures get to hot or cold and locate where the DO levels are high next to a temperature break or thermocline. If you take the bass out of it's good levels of DO and put into a live well with low levels of DO, the bass goes into shock and may die.
Hopes this helps more than confuses the issues with C & R.
I know Jim will correct or clarify where needed, we don't always see eye to eye on some of these issues.
Tom
 
Good detail. Tom. However, let's examine the "shallow water" choice of bass. Our bass are spawning and many are astounded over seeing such huge LMBs in this lake. Everyone is seeing 7-10# bass swimming by in shallow ultra clear water. The spawn excites all who see it happening. WOW! We have big bass!

But then comes post-spawn, summer, fall and winter. Nobody sees those sights even with water clarity allowing us to see 15' down. It's rare for anyone to catch any bass resembling what gets boated during the spawn. We see and catch the 2-4# bass daily, but a 7#er? Relatively nonexistent compared to the numbers of "eaters".

I believe two factors are constant about why. One is hormones. The trophy bass can't help by expose themselves shallow for the spawn. It like our only real chance at bagging a 12 pt buck is during the rut when he goes nuts.

The other factor is each age stage of a bass drives it deeper to safer habitat like any other animal. The fry stick around in a few inches of water protected by dense cover. Fingerlings reach out into water a few feet deep but in thick cover. A 6 month old bass might be found in 5" of water in a protected cove. An 11" bass finally ventures into the main lake a little, at that size able to spawn. But it won't swim with a school chasing shad. On and on, a bass matures and finds deeper waters and safer territory. A shoreline angler has a very brief opportunity to catch the bass destined to end up living out of sight. Once that bass has moved it's gone, and only likely to come shallow at night, like our deer becoming active at night. Meanwhile, probably 99% of bassers compete for the (wild estimate) 10% that elect to remain shallow all their lives until it gets too hot or cold to stay there, or DO is gone because of dense vegetation.

It should be obvious to most of us most bass are clearly not viewed. I've never been on a lake, like Lake Fork and other famous fisheries, and can claim I've seen the majority of bass swimming along shore in shallow water. I might have seen a few hundred scouting all day, realizing there are hundreds of thousands not seen. Are they all shallow? Are most shallow? It's easy to figure out. Get in the boat and follow the shoreline a few days with the best polarized glasses and calm water you can find. Count the fish you see then find out how many bass are estimated to be there. See if they show up on sonar shallow. Try using an Aqua View to find them shallow. We've been using underwater cameras for years at work and don't see trophy bass up shallow.

So it is I believe most anglers believe bass live shallow because they fish shallow. That's all they see in the lake.

Jim
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
The classic answer to that is Buck Perry and his Spoon Plug controlled depth trolling. Perry discovered that big bass go deep and locate near deep structure. The problem is defining deep water and in places like Florida deep water structure.
My theory on this is big bass locate out of harms way, where they can find a sanctuary that has everyhing they need to comfortably survive, a summer home area. Thats why I was so paranoid about other bass fisherman discovering where those sanctuaries are and fished out of my old aluminum boat when targeting big bass. Anyone in a tin boat can't possibly be a good bass fisherman in the eyes of a tournament bass boater. Then the pro live bait bass fisherman started to target those sanctuaries. It didn't take too long to figure out that they could make a decent living guiding fisherman and catching big bass with live bait helped the pro's bass fishing career, it was easy money while it lasted.
Big bass can learn to avoid artificial lures, live bait presented by a knowledgeable pro is another issue. Because our southern CA lakes are small, the year round pressure of live bait fishing can have a major affect on big bass populations. Larger lakes with a good big bass population may be able to handle the pressure because it's nearly impossible to discover where the bass have gone.
With the vast majority of bass fisherman tied to the shoreline, the outside bass receive little fishing pressure. Guess where I like to fish and why I like good electronics.
Tom
 
oldschool said:
The classic answer to that is Buck Perry and his Spoon Plug controlled depth trolling. Perry discovered that big bass go deep and locate near deep structure. The problem is defining deep water and in places like Florida deep water structure.
My theory on this is big bass locate out of harms way, where they can find a sanctuary that has everyhing they need to comfortably survive, a summer home area. Thats why I was so paranoid about other bass fisherman discovering where those sanctuaries are and fished out of my old aluminum boat when targeting big bass. Anyone in a tin boat can't possibly be a good bass fisherman in the eyes of a tournament bass boater. Then the pro live bait bass fisherman started to target those sanctuaries. It didn't take too long to figure out that they could make a decent living guiding fisherman and catching big bass with live bait helped the pro's bass fishing career, it was easy money while it lasted.
Big bass can learn to avoid artificial lures, live bait presented by a knowledgeable pro is another issue. Because our southern CA lakes are small, the year round pressure of live bait fishing can have a major affect on big bass populations. Larger lakes with a good big bass population may be able to handle the pressure because it's nearly impossible to discover where the bass have gone.
With the vast majority of bass fisherman tied to the shoreline, the outside bass receive little fishing pressure. Guess where I like to fish and why I like good electronics.
Tom
I agree Tom. Although I live in central Florida and most lakes here do not have "deep" water, they do still have structure and cover offshore. I don't get nearly as many bites as I do when fishing the bank, but the bites I do get are of better quality. The past 2 years I have focused on finding offshore structure such as breaklines, and in Florida it doesn't take in some cases a 2 to 5' drop to hold fish. I invested in the latest Humminbird sidefinder to help with this and can tell you that on a lake I have fished my whole life (Lake Tarpon), there are things out there I never knew existed before. I came in 5th in the points last year in my local club, only finished out of top 5 in a tournament twice, had 2 big bass awards, and caught 90% of my fish using deep water tactics as used further north with bigger than normal baits. On 3 different ocassions last year I finished in 2nd twice and 5th once without a full 5 fish limit. Both big bass awards came on fish caught in water deeper than 10' using deep diving crankbaits. Ever get the chance, watch the Classic Patterns video with Jason Quinn deep cranking structure. I have the entire set and they all opened my eyes to a whole other world of fishing that few people here in Florida employ.

When fellow club mates pass me at 70mph in the middle of the lake, they think I'm crazy, and when I have 20# of fish in the livewell and see 8 boats flipping the same 50 yard stretch of grass..... no thanks I'll stay offshore with whatever I'm using that day.

Only a couple reasons why I beat the bank. And I don't beat the bank first off in every tournament. Depending on what I did in practice I may go straight to deep water. 1: In a tournament I am looking for a quick limit before heading to deeper water for that bigger bite. 2: I have the kids with me and need for them to stay interested in fishing.

That's it for me.
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
Jay, Thanks for your participation on this topic. I think we may need a new topic under Tips & Tactics for targeting big bass. I have posted a lot of stuff on bass behavior and you might want to read them, if you haven't already. Sounds like you are a good bass fisherman. CA doesn't have many big natural lakes. Clear lake and the delta area are the closest to a Florida's lakes, except the water clarity is not as clear. It doesn't take a radical depth change to hold bass outside in shallow lakes, just isolated structure with some cover. Crank baits are a reaction lure that active bass strike, you may need to develop presentations for neutral bass to increase your windows of opportunity. Good luck.
Tom
Ps; I left off the Colorado river lakes like upper Havasu and the Imperial reservoir area that has clear water and miles of shallow water tulle flooded waterways.
 
Discussion starter · #72 ·
With the big bass parade at Falcon and Amistad comming up next, rejuvenating this thread seems appropriate.
All to Elite 12 finishers topped 100 Lbs., and the bass world will be buzzing. That is the value of big bass stated better than I can!
Tom
 
I would go with a fiberglass mount. although with the sharelunker program in TX I would turn it in and they still give you a fiberglass mount and you get to do what you want with the fish if it's still alive after a yr. I would then have it returned to the lake I caught it at.
 
Joe B said:
I would go a a fiberglass mount. although with the sharelunker program in TX I would turn it in and they still give you a fiberglass mount and you get to do what you want with the fish if it's still alive after a yr. I would then have it returned to the lake I caught it at.
I wish that Georgia would adopt a program like this one. As for what I would do with the bass if it survived a year in the hands of the governing wildlife agency of the state...................if I knew that it would be treated with respect and wouldn't be abused, I believe that I would request that it stay with the DNR (Georgia's DNR) so that they can extract the DNA from that bass and cross with it good genetics, to produce more bigger bass.

I wouldn't want the fish to be put through a torture treatment just to get eggs from it. If it could be used as a brood stocking female and live to a ripe old age, then that would be alright with me. :thumbup01:
 
Discussion starter · #75 ·
It would be ironic if Georgia transplanted the Texas genetic Florida engineered bass, being the home of the current world record.
The key to growing giant bass is a combination of excellent habitate and abundance of big baitfish and crawdads. If Georgia or Florida rebuilds a dam and floods new habitate with a good population of baitfish, keeps the lake closed for 4 or 5 years, then you would have giant bass again. Just don't see that happening in todays anti dam world.
California has that potential underway at lake San Vincente in San Diego area, as they are raising the dam more than 50 feet and that will double the size of San V, a lake that has produced 18+ lb bass. San V will also be closed until 2015 or so, dam I maybe be too old to fish it!
Tom
 
I don't see it being ironic, but a step in the right direction. There are lakes now that are producing double digit bass. The lake that I frequent, Rocky Mountain, has the reputation of spitting out multiple 10 + lbs. bass. I just feel that it would be in the best interest of Georgia to adopt a program like Share A Lunker, so that we can start producing bass of better quality.

I am proud of the fisheries that we have. All across the state, each lake has it's own pros and cons. On Weiss (yes, part of it is in Alabama, but 10% is in Georgia), you have the Coosa Spots. On Carter's, you have massive spots as well as Lanier. Down south, we have great largemouth fisheries. To the east, we have Clark's Hill, which is an Elite Series lake.
 
Discussion starter · #77 ·
You gotta see the irony in transplanting Texas bass into Georgia!
Texas has the largest budget of any state for raising LMB to plant into their lakes. Most states do not plant LMB beyond the initial planting, because bass are a self sustaining game fish.
It would be wonderful if the state of Georgia or Florida followed Texas lead in bass fishing management and development. California, one the wealthest state in the country, doesn't spend one penny on bass fishing management, we only have trout hatcheries, no bass hatchery. Bass are transplanted from an older lake to a new lake by the DFG upon request by the new lake, otherwise bass are on their own.
All the FLMB in CA came by way of private transplants funded by bass clubs or city investment.
I would be curious to know the genetic makeup of the LMB in Georgia today. It maybe that no Florida LMB genes are present in Georgia bass anymore or the percentage to NLMB is so great as to prevent the bass from growing beyond 15 lbs.
Tom
 
I hate to bring up this old post BUT:

The damage done by fishing tournaments each yaer far outweighs the harm that recreational anglers do fishing beds or not.

My personal beliefs are to release EVERYTHING I catch (freshwater), and it is done so within 30 seconds.

The mortality of bass in livewells and the harm it does removing them from tending their nests/young is not measurable, since many times days after they die, and how can we measure how many young went unattended? We can guess.


JC
 
Discussion starter · #79 ·
I'm not a fan of tournament bass fishing beyond the obvious tackle development and the interest in bass fishing tournaments creates. However I do not believe that organized tournament fishing has anymore impact on bass populations than recreational fishermen and fishing guides do. Today most tournament bass fishermen, weekend clubs and organized trails tend to make an effort to release the bass in what they believe is in good condition. Recreational fishermen primarily fish for food, so a catch results in death to the bass or any other fish.
Large lakes are managed to have the fish population harvested as a renewable resource. That is why the camp grounds are there and have fish cleaning stations.
As a trophy bass fishermen, I target big bass when fishing and on occasion fish for 2 to 3 lb bass for food, release about 99.9% of the bass caught.
The damage to big bass populations happens during the pre spawn and spawning periods, as we have discussed. The big girls lay their eggs and leave the nest to the male and it's the smaller male who protects the eggs and fry, not the female. This issue, the big females are catchable during this time and tend to dissapear for 9 of the 12 months each year.
 
Discussion starter · #80 ·
Well we are heading for 2010 and it's time once again to bump this old thread up and talk about the value of big bass.
A large parentage of bass anglers have never had the experience of catching or even holding a big bass over 8 lbs. We call them largemouth bass because their mouths are extremely large compared to most other fresh water game fish. The exception being big pike and musky have big mouths. About 1/3rd of the bass is head, the rest is mid body and tail. Why is this important? No reason other than the size of the prey a big bass can effectively swallow is about 1/3rd it's length or equal to it's mid body area, the gullet.
A 16" long plastic worm works because it can be rolled up to the size of an orange, smaller than a 5" bluegill for example. When selecting big baits think about how wide they are compared to length.
Getting back on tract; the Kurita 22 lb 5 oz bass will more than likely not be allowed as the new world record. The reason being where it was caught was posted "no fishing" and had nothing to do with the bass being caught in Japan on a live bluegill.
The value of the next world record will depend on if it's caught on live bait verses artificial lure. The Artificial lure caught bass will have more marketing value.
Tom
 
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